James McPherson's Media & Politics Blog

Observations of a patriotic progressive historian, media critic & former journalist


  • By the author of The Conservative Resurgence and the Press: The Media’s Role in the Rise of the Right and of Journalism at the End of the American Century, 1965-Present. A former journalist with a Ph.D. in journalism, history and political science, McPherson is a past president of the American Journalism Historians Association, a board member for the Northwest Alliance for Responsible Media, and a professor of communication studies at Whitworth University.

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Should football players be raped more often?

Posted by James McPherson on March 20, 2013

rape cultureObviously the question in the headline above is a stupid one. No one should be raped.

Repeat: NO ONE should be raped. Ever. It doesn’t matter what s/he was wearing or drinking or smoking or saying. Or where. Or when. Or how old or “experienced” s/he is. I use the “s/he” advisedly until now, as victims include men and boys. But of course most are women.

And yet we now live in a rape culture. We don’t just objectify and ridicule women, we revel in that objectification, with all sorts of media (including those pretending to complain about the objectification) using it to draw an audience — as if that doesn’t cheapen whatever else the publication or site has to offer.

The degree to which we have become a rape culture meant that my planned media criticism class for the day went out the window. Instead, we critiqued some news coverage of the Steubenville rape convictions and of rape in the military. And being immersed in the issue — and thinking about the tangentially related issue of how much we value athletes and athletics over many, many more important aspects of life — has prompted me to avoid filling out a March Madness bracket for the first time in years.

Rape occurs seemingly everywhere, not just in those scary foreign places where it has become a weapon of choice for intimidation and social control. Incidentally, even in those places, at least one study suggests “that the most common perpetrators of sexual violence in wartime are husbands, partners or other family members — reminding us to wonder again why spousal rape wasn’t outlawed in all 50 states until 1993 (yes, 20 years ago, probably after you were born) and why some conservatives think we should return to those “good ol’ days.

Rape happens here. On college campuses, even Christian college campuses. At high schools, in churches, and sometimes even on the street (though not as often there as the media might lead you to believe).

And rape happens in incredibly alarming numbers among those whom we trust to defend us in the U.S. military — where one in four women can expect to be raped by her male colleagues, and where a victim is more likely to be raped multiple times than is a non-military rape victim — and among those we idolize for their faux war skills on a football field (also here and here) or basketball court. Some statistics suggest that one-third of campus rapes are committed by athletes. (And regardless of the exact numbers, we never seem to see the band geeks or the academic scholarship winners accused of such crimes).

And what do we do about it? Too often we look to blame people other than the perpetrators. Interesting context comes from an academic report from about five years ago, citing a University of Nebraska policy manual for student athletes:

The paragraph dealing with rape appeared to not so subtly place blame on the potential victim:
“Be careful, especially if you have been drinking, (sic) that you do not misread signals. Trouble has often occurred when a woman has remained alone with several men after a drinking party. While some may feel that this shows poor judgment on the woman’s part, it certainly does not justify rape (The University of Nebraska, 2000, pg.2.)”
The handbook author may not have officially intended to endorse drinking and blame the woman who might be raped, but athletes may have seen this paragraph as containing a hidden message. This message reflects the process of objectification of groupies as deceivers who deserve the rape. In addition, an athlete, in rationalizing his behavior, may feel unfairly persecuted by individuals outside the athletic culture.

Of course it’s not hard to figure out why athletes might feel “unfairly persecuted,” considering that their fans are all too willing to blame the accusers, both before and after the facts of a case become known. The Steubenville rape case showed us that (along with some of the best and worst of what social media have to offer), but so have many other cases — including another one, reported just one day after the Steubenville verdict, this one involving a 13-year-old alleged victim.

But then we already knew years ago that fans were willing to attack alleged victims, from the cases involving Ben Roethlisberger, Kobe Bryant and Jake Plummer (the first two of whom exemplify why I will likely cheer against the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Los Angeles Lakers for the rest of my life).

But we expect fans to be morons. More troubling to me is the fact that if athletes are involved, too often media concern seems to be on the athlete — the famous or semi-famous or seemingly pitiful person that for some reason we want to believe the best about — and too few news people ask the question posed this week by Time: “What about the victim?” An leading example this week was provided by CNN, with the video below. Another troubling example from the same case is that all three of the major cable news networks saw fit to air the name of the 16-year-old rape victim.

A Jezebel article last November concluded with: “Can legendary college athletes also be rapists? Of course they can. Can they be ever be convicted rapists? That’s less clear.” Maybe now they will be, more often, after Steubenville (or maybe on-campus rapes will decrease). Maybe this will be “rape culture’s Abu Ghraib moment,” but I’m no more confident of that than I am that another gun massacre will lead to meaningful firearm regulations.

In fact, the only thing that I’m convinced would make most of America care about the frequency with which its young men commit rape would be if star athletes themselves were the victims — if some star football player or basketball player were held down, brutalized, urinated on, videotaped and cast aside.

And, sadly, even that might matter only if it were star male athletes.

44 Responses to “Should football players be raped more often?”

  1. Reuel said

    As I get older it seems real values of life are being cast aside, some say it isn’t getting worse, it is just the advance and increasing venues of reporting. They are wrong. The most eye opening for me was when Egypt was going thru it’s Arab Spring and the female reporter from our country was there reporting a very historical change. The message from that attack on her should of been the warning that Egypt was returning to the dark ages and women have no rights. Iraq and Afghanistan will to return to these times as soon as the troops and cameras leave. As evil as rape is one can only wonder the percentage of rape in these Man owned parts of the world.

    I must admit, if this would happen to someone I care about, I am not to sure how I would react. Quite possibly end up behind bars for vigilantly justices.

    Yes James the CNN even having any reference to the promising athletic careers, did catch me off guard. We have enough athletes and unreality characters in our world.

    A women is a equal in my mind but not in all this world I live in. Religious books edited and written by men also place women as unequal. IE Bible, Koran and may others. I do believe in a higher purpose, but do not follow any organize religion based on things like “The King James Version” that were preselected chapters written by a bunch of Middle eastern “Men” that have reduced women to a lesser being.

    So why the surprise that women are the victims of such actions. Men have reduced them for thousands of year even in their religions to a lees equal.

  2. SBJ; rape is not isolated to athletes committing it, and I am quite certain that it happens more than we would like to know. Let’s play pretend, shall we? Oomph! I cannot write what I wish to write on your site! (Don’t want to freak everyone out totally 100%)Nevermind…….

  3. James McPherson said

    “Men have reduced them for thousands of years even in their religions to a less equal.”

    Indeed.

    “rape is not isolated to athletes committing it”

    No, but there are studies that indicate they do it more–and get away with it more often after charges are brought.

    “I am quite certain that it happens more than we would like to know.”

    Indeed–I’ve known several rape victims who chose not to make it public. Thanks to you both for the comments.

  4. Silly James, what these studies don’t show is the number of women who are raped and do not report it. Rape only seems to become big news and get a study done when it’s a famous person. This is, as B. would say, a fallacy. I tell you, have a little chat with someone in the ER one day…Betchya I’m right.

  5. James McPherson said

    “what these studies don’t show is the number of women who are raped and do not report it”

    True. Kells–including many others raped by athletes and soldiers. But I find that to be a largely irrelevant side issue, because, as you suggest, rape is all too common throughout the world–including here in the good ol’ USA. And the main point of my post is that, as I wrote, “NO ONE should be raped” — and the media shouldn’t act as if the rapists are the victims. I care less about who is doing the raping than about the frequency with which rape occurs, and how little our society acts to discourage it.

    As for Joe, I don’t much care what he’d call anything. It seems that he has become even more strident and pitifully dishonest than when I was a regular over there. Each time I drop in, I’m quickly reminded of why Greg and I took leave in the first place. Despite the fact that the outcome should have been predictable (I kept telling them what would happen, for example), the election seemed to send both he and Utah further over the edge.

    Today when I called Joe on his repeated and boring overuse of the word “NAZI” (always in all caps), he first resorted to namecalling (remember when he used to say that was a sign of a weak argument?) and then devoted a post to me — and managed to tell six separate lies about my views within that single post. http://therionorteline.com/2013/03/26/if-it-walks-like-a-nazi/

    Mostly, though, the RNL seems to have become largely regurgitation of articles from “The Blaze” and even farther right sources, with bitter, whining, predictably dull personal commentary tacked on. Sad, really — at one time, it seemed to have promise as a thoughtful source. I can’t imagine that Utah is happy with what it has become.

  6. You boys are all very silly. Speaking of boys, did you know that men are raped too??!! That one chick was tiny, but she tied the fella up and had her way with him. (Sorry, I was thinking on that case a while back ago..)

    Gosh, that would make an interesting post. Just outta curiosity, SBJ; if you were raped by a woman, would you report it?

  7. James McPherson said

    “did you know that men are raped too?”

    Of course.– I wrote it, along with links, in the second paragraph of my most. Of course, they’re more likely to be raped by other men than by women.

    “if you were raped by a woman, would you report it?”

    I hope I’d report any crime committed against me, though of course it’s difficult to know until you’re in that situation. I’ve known several rape victims. Some reported it; some didn’t. I don’t blame them for either choice.

  8. Let’s be honest: If Kate Upton tied you up and raped you, would you report it? According to that NAACP fella, it is the female’s fault. What is so completely ludicrous about this argument is that the man is always the aggressor. He must be, for he has the loaded weapon. Honestly, I do not know how a woman could rape a man. Then again, this chick tied this thief up, fed him Viagra and had her way with him. It was the most bizarre story. Ha! I found it! http://www.true-equality.net/archive/2011/07/14/female-salon-owner-beats-up-robber-ties-him-up-rapes.aspx

  9. James McPherson said

    “If Kate Upton tied you up and raped you, would you report it?”

    I think I would if I thought anyone would believe me — which goes to a big problem with rape. Particularly when it comes to soldiers, athletes or celebrities, people don’t want to believe it and so they choose not to.

  10. You lie like the devil! You’d be askin for her number!!

    I do agree with you that we don’t want to accept bad things about people we like. I think on that football player (can’t recall his name) who had that dog-fighting ring going on. I noticed that many people stood up for him after these atrocities to animals were proven. Perhaps people want to see the good in people even though they’re behaving badly? It’s not only Americans….boy, oh, boy, the French sure came out for that IMF fella that raped the maid (I forget his name.)

  11. James McPherson said

    You seem to be confusing victimless fantasy with rape — a crime of violence, in which there is a victim. But it is true that Americans are hardly the only sexist idiots in the world; we may be even less so than most nations, in fact.

  12. melfamy said

    “If Kate Upton tied you up and raped you, would you report it?”

    I think I would if I thought anyone would believe me —-

    ^5

  13. James McPherson said

    :-)

  14. G. may laugh all he pleases, but the reality is that SBJ has the map. I shouldn’t divulge this sensitive information; but by gosh, by golly, somebody’s got to! We are all very aware of the primal attraction that women have to men who follow directions. This is all the evidence that SBJ will need: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSw1F-E_M2A

  15. Reuel said

    “If Kate Upton tied you up and raped you, would you report it?”

    There is the known and unknown and this is known. Never happen but must say if it did I would. Back to the original point I think was implied. Yes your status seems to be what you are judged by in public. Heck; Obama has been raping all of us with the 53 percent increase in deficits spending since taking office and that is not all President Bush’s fualt at this point. Just waiting for the rest of the public to take notice. I assume that makes me raciest, I hate children and want to push Granny over the cliff for such thoughts. Oh well we are all on this same ship and when it goes down I am sure the ones that caused the problem will get the life boats. Yep status does matter in the eyes of the beholder. I don’t know if it true or not that they are storing up on bullets at the DHS, but I assume it is a possibility.

  16. Reuel said

    Kate Upton Family history would lead to the option of that ever happening less likely than her sitting on top of a clothes washer during the spin cycle. Whirlpool brand of course. Hint.Hint.

  17. jm said

    “We don’t just objectify and ridicule women, we revel in that objectification, with all sorts of media (including those pretending to complain about the objectification) using it to draw an audience — as if that doesn’t cheapen whatever else the publication or site has to offer.”

    A clear example of that kind of media feeding frenzy is evident in the following story by CBS News.

    The story is entitled: “Professor’s blog on Steubenville rape stirs anger.”

    The lede is as follows:

    Some University of Rochester students want an economics professor censured for comments he made about rape in a blog post after the conviction of two high school football players in Steubenville, Ohio.
    The Democrat and Chronicle of Rochester reports that students have started an online petition urging the school’s president to censure Steven Landsburg. The newspaper says they plan to protest outside Landsburg’s class on Monday.

    Link: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57577956/professors-blog-on-steubenville-rape-stirs-anger/

    Before talking about what the professor said, the story referenced links to three other CBS stories concerning the rape case:

    ,

    • Steubenville Rape Case: How drunk is too drunk to consent to sex?
    • City backs growing Steubenville probe, official says
    • FBI probes cyber threats against Steubenville sheriff

    Following the reference to the links, the story continues as follows:

    In a blog post last month, Landsburg referred to a recent Ohio case in which two students were convicted of raping an acquaintance who was unconscious. The professor asked whether the law ought to discourage acts of rape in which the person is unconscious and suffers no direct physical harm.

    “As long as I’m safely unconscious and therefore shielded from the costs of an assault, why shouldn’t the rest of the world (or more specifically my attackers) be allowed to reap the benefits?” he writes in the post.

    The professor’s blog post was patently absurd.

    Instead of ignoring it or criticizing it, CBS used it to draw an audience to the links for the other three stories.

    That is clear because the links are imbedded in the story following the lede but before the quote from the professor’s blog post.

    So as long as a viewer clicked on or more of the links, the writer of the story accomplished his/her goal. The writer apparently had no concern about how demeaning the professor’s comment was under the circumstances.

    Shameful!

  18. Reuel said

    Libya is to Obama as Watergate was to Nixon. The Libya story is only beginning. Why were we attacking them for in the first place? So I guess with that answered, I guess we should of done Syria also? Right. But Bush lied and people died, was sold as fact and this interruption/deception is not a lie. Not hard to control the message when most of the media is in your pocket..

    Hope all is well, Have a good day. :-)

  19. James McPherson said

    I think any comparison of Benghazi to Watergate is just wishful thinking by conservatives, though I did find the fact that Ollie North is commenting on it to be hilarious: http://aattp.org/oblivious-fox-dolts-miss-irony-of-asking-oliver-norths-opinion-of-alleged-benghazi-cover-up-video/

    If we’re going to get into who we should attack and when, I guess we’ll have to talk more about Obama the drone warrior, and even revisit the whole Bush-lying-about-Iraq thing, which is now enshrined in his farcical library “game”: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/05/20135511234556920.html

    But we’ve covered that ground, and you’re likely to end up as happy with the results of the Benghazi investigation as I am with the outcome of the Iraq non-investigation. Or as happy as I am about the opening and the continuation of Gitmo.http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21577065-prison-deeply-un-american-disgrace-it-needs-be-closed-rapidly-enough-make-you-gag

    I’m well–it’s finals week here, the weather has been glorious, and the Mariners have been winning a few games. I hope you are also well.

  20. Reuel said

    Hadn’t heard from you for a while, so posted a little rant. Well just yesterday it was the 40th anniversary of Watergate. The last comment was a tee up for that and the not only Libya, IRS and snooping on the AP. Man! Nixon and Bush are Saints compared to this group I now call “The not responsible for anything gang”. Let me make on thing clear about Libya it was not the talking points, it was the stand down for 7 hours and leave Americans to die without any attempt to help them. Also no one has been “Brought to justice” as promised. How is it this man ever became President in the first place? Easy, lack of vetting and playing the race card on even the Clinton’s.

  21. William Gates said

    April 18, 1983, a suicide bomber in a pickup truck loaded with explosives rammed into the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. Sixty-three people were killed, including 17 Americans, eight of whom were employees of the Central Intelligence Agency. The U.S. government took no military action in response to the embassy bombing.

    Oct 23, 1983, a suicide bomber detonated a truck full of explosives at a U.S. Marine barracks located at Beirut International Airport; 241 U.S. Marines were killed and more than 100 others wounded.
    The president assembled his national security team to devise a plan of military action. The planned target was the Sheik Abdullah barracks in Baalbek, Lebanon, which housed Iranian Revolutionary Guards believed to be training Hezbollah fighters. Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger aborted the mission, reportedly because of his concerns that it would harm U.S. relations with other Arab nations. Instead, President Reagan ordered the battleship USS New Jersey, stationed off the coast of Lebanon, to the hills near Beirut.

    Dec 12, 1983, the American embassy in Kuwait was bombed in a series of attacks whose targets also included the French embassy, the control tower at the airport, the country’s main oil refinery, and a residential area for employees of the American corporation Raytheon. Six people were killed, including a suicide truck bomber, and more than 80 others were injured. The U.S. military took no action in retaliation.

    March 16, 1984, CIA station chief Buckley was the fourth person to be kidnapped by militant Islamic extremists in Lebanon. The first American hostage, American University of Beirut President David Dodge, had been kidnapped in July 1982. Eventually, 30 Westerners would be kidnapped during the 10-year-long Lebanese hostage-taking crisis (1982-1992).
    Solution? Secret arms sales to Iran, hostages back to the U.S. The plan, when it was revealed to the public, was decried as a failure and anathema to the U.S. policy of refusing to negotiate with terrorists.

    Very few people have been “brought to justice” in any of these incidents where hundreds of Americans lost their lives.

    I could go on and on but there’s no need to. Things happen in the world sometimes that a president alone can’t always be blamed for or prevent. Obviously, many have forgotten these terrorist acts that killed many Americans in a short period of time.

    Same question posed differently: “How did this man ever get elected and reelected by a landslide?”

  22. James McPherson said

    “Hadn’t heard from you for a while”

    No, Reuel, I’ve been busy with end-of-the-semester stuff (this is finals week), and pretty bored and disgusted with politics. Instead of spending so much time with the political circus, I’ve been trying to devote free time to reading/watching more uplifting things. In addition, I’m writing another book, and so not writing much elsewhere that’s longer than a Facebook post.

    “How is it this man ever became President in the first place?”

    The same way that George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter (and to a lesser degree, Ronald Reagan) all became president, and the same way that Chris Christie might–by being the “outsider” that clueless voters read as whatever fits their own hopes. Besides, even you or I would have beat McCain after eight years of Bush.

    And as William notes, he was re-elected handily (as I predicted would happen), because fewer voters saw Romney as a logical alternative.

    William, good history, which goes to my point with a comment farther up–that the idea that Benghazi will hurt Obama is simply wishful thinking. In fact, you notice that the White House just released a bunch of emails that seem to help Obama’s case–while (not coincidentally, in my view) taking attention away from two more important issues, the IRS targeting (though the IRS has a long history of that, including under W) and the Associated Press flap.

    Thanks, gentlemen, for the comments.

  23. Well. looks as though someone is the lazy Daisy! Good grief, SBJ! Two months and not a post?

  24. James McPherson said

    Indeed, it has been almost two months. I’ve started a couple of posts, but just can’t seem to care enough about the state of modern politics to get too worked up about anything. And lots of other people are covering the issues, anyway. You’ve probably noticed that I rarely stop by the RNL (or other blogs), either, anymore.

    Mostly I’ve been working on other things, including another book. The folks at the RNL will even contribute to it in a broad sense, though I won’t name them and they might not recognize themselves even if they were willing to read it. (One of the folks there claimed once that he read my last one, but he was lying or really weak on comprehension, based on his comments). But some of them regularly provide prime examples of what I expect to address in a section about idiotic political bloggers and commenters. :-)

    Thanks for checking in.

  25. SBJ, if you promise to make me the heroine who kicks ass and saves the day, I shall read your book. You are all very silly boys…..who need to be spanked.

    Seriously, I do believe I could pick out your cast after it is written. What you need to do is write a murder mystery; the tripe that I have been performing year after year is for the birds! I’m sure I could come up with one more clever and funny, but I have no idea how one goes about that…..

  26. Reuel said

    William I shall reply soon. Must step back and think about what you have written and give this some thought before I write from the perspective of the front lines during that time frame you speak of. Interesting write you posted and not sure the relevant to the current situation. But I shall return as they say.

    James; Will be looking for the book, will put it on my to do list. Would like to write a book some day myself, but would need to have a good editor, due to as I have said in the past “Engineer not a English Major” Not ashamed of the “Engineer” Title, it has been very profitable and rewarding on its own.

  27. William Gates said

    I though it was relevant in response to what you posted.

    “Well just yesterday it was the 40th anniversary of Watergate.”

    Assuming you were following the current wave of Benghazi being Obama’s “Watergate” then my post that included points from what previous administrations have encountered where nothing “stuck to them were relevant. Every life is precious but comparing Benghazi to Beirut (even indirectly) is down right asinine. Or even Iran-Contra where noting stuck to the head of that administration.

    “Also no one has been “Brought to justice” as promised”.

    Who was brought to justice when 241American Marines lost their lives in Beirut?

    “How is it this man ever became President in the first place?”

    How did the man, that was POTUS when all of that I described above happened, become president and how did he get re-elected when all of those terrorist acts happened during his administratio? Why didn’t anything stick to him? We’re only talking about a little more than a year that all of those incidents happened. I didn’t even mention the USS Cole. Guess Congress was too busy worrying about who the POTUS was sleeping with than anything else. BTW, how did he ever get elected? Or even re-elected?

  28. Reuel said

    William, After consideration and being assumed to be “asinine” I shall not share my adventures while serving my country during all that you listed above. It is a interesting tale indeed, but let just say “justice was served. But the country Barry help overthrow then just leave it to its own accord is current and was wrong from the beginning. I don’t recall any you listed where we over threw the current government then left the security to a bunch of contractors for the protection of our State Department personnel. They took the Marines out in August and they were attached on 9/11, because of a video. Now being asinine must also run threw this administration veins.

    Have a nice day.

    Oh side bar; Still think this is possible and we may find out sooner or later when Syria is resolved.

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2003-10-29/news/0310290219_1_illicit-weapons-clapper-weapons-inspector

  29. William Gates said

    Dude, I never called you asinine. I said to comparing the 2 incidents would be, or did I miss something? Were you comparing the 2?

    It’s always “wait for it” with you guys. Put some facts down on paper then we can debate it. We can’t debate “What if”. Or “there’s more to this that’s not being reported.” We know there were 3-5 agents requested to supplement the 5 that were already there. That would have made a total of possibly 8-10. We also know that the request was rejected from up to a year prior to the incident by the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs. Now, without an org chart, I couldn’t tell you how far up the chain that it or whom that person reports to. But that’s about as far as the request got from what is being reported. If you want to frame a credible argument, I suggest that is a good place to start.

    “They took the Marines out in August and they were attached (sp?) on 9/11, because of a video.”

    Hell, there was 220 MARINES killed in Lebanon by 2 suicide bombers. What was a few marines scattered around the embassy in Benghazi going to do with that mob? Afterwards, where was the justice served? Where? Video? These people kill whenever. They don’t need a reason or a video to get pissed off and strap a bomb on.

    “I shall not share my adventures while serving my country during all that you listed above. It is a interesting tale indeed, but let just say “justice was served.”

    Oh, another internet blog military hero. Geez. That administration didn’t do much of anything for fear of what? “Harming relations with the other Arab nations”. So unless you were on that ship off the coast of Lebanon your involvement was probably non-existent or limited at best.

    “Now being asinine must also run threw this administration veins.”

    I can agree with that on a lot of matters.

    Lives we lost and it’s unfortunate but serving in those areas are always high risk. It happened. If you can show me an administration that hasn’t had a terrorist act, equal or worst in the last 4 administrations, then I can respect your post. But rants based on biases are often filled with inaccuracies because the poster is more concerned with making the subject look bad than his post being credible.

    Syria? Iran-Contra?

  30. Reuel said

    I am not a internet hero, I served on a Guide missile cruiser, which was off the coast of Libya exactly 12 miles when the President at the time wanted to tell the leader of that country that just becuase he claimed international water were 100 mile of his coast. The ship was the Flag ship for the whole Atlantic fleet. We were at most of the things you listed and were close enough to see the flash in the sky for the tent attack on Libya. That shut that guy up for decades, then we were the first US Naval ship to enter the Black sea in 40 years. We visited Constantia Romania. We were escorted not by choice by many USSR Ships and buzzed by a whole lot of Migs. Now being a hero, I was not, I was in the engineering plant and we were at General Quarters for the whole transit to Romania. I was assigned to that ship and was part of many things I am sure never made “Video” or headline news during these time. Kuwait, no was not there in the 80’s, 90’s yes.

    See my point is, I guess is that lots of times we didn’t have to even pull the trigger to get some one or some countries attention. Also the current advancements in technologies were in place to rescue these Americans, unlike any that you try to compare to this. Barry and his campaign team could of watched the whole 7 hour attack in real-time and I am sure some did. He and his campaign were more important than anything else at that time. Now we see many things were known before the November 2012 Election that if reported may have opened some eye enough to make him a one term-er. IRS, AP, FOX NEWS phone tapping, Fast and furious gun trafficking. Obama-care being managed by the IRS.

    Now I don’t claim to be any expert of how to treat each international situation, but I do know one thing, we handle every country differently, Libya= One Bomb the tyrant shuts up (Reagan), Attack Iraq and Libya leader was so paranoid he turned over his whole nuclear/chemical weapons equipment (Bush II). I suspect he was a big drug user and that caused his paranoid condition. Cold war “Tear down this wall”. North Korea=give them food every spring and they will go back to selling missiles and other crap that is 1940 technology. Although Russia seems to be cutting into their business lately. Then we get Barry and his whole crew that think they are still in Chicago and no one will notice. They respond to a story with a abridged surgically selected part of the issue and repeat it over and over to make that the talking point. It is like they want to control the conversation. Here is a example; Anything that questioned Barry’s past was respond to as if it were a birther issue. They want the Birther issue and they got it. They wanted the Video conversation for Libya because it a distraction from the real issue. He was running for re-election bragging that GM is Alive and the terrorist are defeated. In September 2012 Barry and his campaign decided to not rescue those Americans at the slight chance it would be a Jimmy Carter/Iran moment.

    Barry Lied and people died, because of a campaign. Please explain to me how that has anything to do with Lebanon and the whole world in 1980’s. Watergate, no one got killed. But they were both about a election.

  31. melfamy said

    Reuel, either you are forgetting that Reagan pulled us out of Lebanon after the attack on the barracks, or you want us to forget that uncomfortable fact.
    Also, the arrangement by which Qaddafi caved in to the west was started during the Clinton years. Sorry, but it is true….http://www.army.mil/professionalWriting/volumes/volume4/may_2006/5_06_4.html
    Now,you are certain that we could have saved the ambassador and the other three brave men, but we didn’t because Obama wanted to divert attention from the birther issue? My friend, if anything, Obama is PERPETUATING the birther issue, because every day it is front and center, the stupider Obama’s opposition looks by asssociation.

  32. Reuel said

    No I remember the pull out after the attack, as the matter of fact my ship was in the eastern Mediterranean during that. I am unsure of intent as per your debate of showing past history to justify present incompetence of the current commander and chief. There is not one thing similar in the past to Barry uprooting the current leadership of a country and leaving it to its own accord with a reduced security force for his State Department personnel. When in FACT they were warning their chain of command prior to the attack. Then send the UN Representative on 5 Sunday morning news shows to say it was becuase a video. So at this time I will debate the current situation not history. First where did the birther issue have to do with Libya. That was a example for the way he he and his administration/campaign handles all disagreements. They pick the fight they want. They frame the argument they want. Heck yeah he could of presented the Birth Certificate sooner but it was the fight they wanted. All the other parts of Barry’s life up to 2008 was not respond to either. They tagged everyone whom questioned them a birther or a raciest. Never really answered anything. Not sure how you can not see the mistakes this guy is currently responsible for and jump to history to support his actions, it seems. The facts will come out and history will not be kind to him.

  33. melfamy said

    I am showing your inconsistency, is what I am doing.

    There is not one thing similar in the past to Barry uprooting the current leadership of a country and leaving it to its own accord

    What country is this? Not Libya, whose popularly- elected parliament elected as President Mohammad el-Megarif last october. No doubt security was insufficient, that should be investigated. But the misstatements after the attack are a diversion, fodder for the right-wing, who have not a care about how we were lied into a war in Iraq, nor how Bush and his team , despite repeated warnings, were taken by surprise on 9/11. History matters, Reuel.

  34. Reuel said

    We were not LIED into a war in Iraq. Also There was no specific threat know for 9/11. We have had warnings for decades, after the first tower bombing in the basement, The USS Cole. Just because the left repeats the lie that “Bush Lied” does not make it fact. Yes history does matter and there is zero evidence that President Bush or his administration knew the exact details for 9/11. Or that Iraq did or did not have WMD. Truthers and Birthers are both just internet historians minus fact. Now the Democrats that investigated President Bush from 2006 to January 2009, investigated many things and came up with zero. As they say all is fair in politics and Barry is going to get investigated for Libya, IRS targeted hit jobs, Fast and furious, Taping the AP e-mails/phone records. The list just get longer and longer for Barry. If anything he should be deem incompetent because he knows nothing about anything happening in the government he is suppose to be leading”.

    It is only inconsistent if based on non factual fact like “Bush Lie” syndrome or Bush Knew exactly what the next move was and it was going to happen on 9/11. If either of these would of been proven he would of been impeached between 2006 and 2009 by a all Democratic ran Senate/ House of Rep. LIbya was not a threat to national security, Syria is along with its allies. History does matter and it is being made as I write this. Barry’s should be investigated as President Bush was for all he is responsible for to date.

    Got to go the IRS does not agree with my thought s so Audit time.

  35. James McPherson said

    “We were not LIED into a war in Iraq.”

    I don’t think there are many people left who agree with you on that one, Reuel: http://www.publicintegrity.org/accountability/iraq-war-card

    And while there may not have been a “specific threat,” there definitely were “repeated warnings.” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/opinion/the-bush-white-house-was-deaf-to-9-11-warnings.html?_r=0

  36. Reuel said

    New York Times? Yeah weren’t they the ones that said there was WMD before they retracted it? Yes. Don’t know who Public Integrity is but guess it is another Soro’s funded hack job.

    I guess I have to do what Barry’s people do; Plead the fifth.

  37. Reuel said

    Yep went to Public Integrity dot org. Clicked on donor page and to no surprise this non-partisan investigative group (Choke Choke) is funded by some of the side channels used by “Soro’s” I am sure there is a conservative QQ somewhere in that list.

    If you have evidence that President Bush lied, then I am sure the Democrats would love to have it. He didn’t. They investigated it for 2 years and came up with the conclusion that if President Bush lied, so did a whole lot of Democrats.

  38. James McPherson said

    “Yeah weren’t they the ones that said there was WMD before they retracted it?”

    Not quite. They freely reported the Bush administration claims about WMD’s and didn’t check out those claims, so they admitted that (way too late) and forced the reporter out of her job.

    I’d have thought you to be beyond the simple “blame the messenger” meme so common among political partisans on both sides. As far as Public Integrity dot org, it’s pretty easy to check on the quotes themselves and to find when/where they were uttered–and to see if any of them were proven to be factual. And though I respect your respectful approach to dialogue and your thoughtfulness about many issues, I remain dumbfounded by the fact that you find the Bush administration to be credible in any way.

    And just out of curiosity, is there anyone other than the Bushies that you do trust? Where do you get your news?

    “if President Bush lied, so did a whole lot of Democrats”

    And the surprise about that would be? After all, Obama is simply a continuation of the same idiotic neo-con philosophy we had under W.

  39. William Gates said

    “See my point is, I guess is that lots of times we didn’t have to even pull the trigger to get some one or some countries attention.”

    Obviously that didn’t/doesn’t work since the attacks kept on coming after that.

    “Now I don’t claim to be any expert of how to treat each international situation, but I do know one thing, we handle every country differently, Libya= One Bomb the tyrant shuts up (Reagan)”

    That’s just some BS right there. Libya kept on talking. Don’t know which one bomb you’re talking about. Don’t think you do either. We jumped in head first. I actually was reading Colin Powell’s book this past weekend and he said, “the referee has now chosen sides” speaking of us shelling Libya.

    “Cold war “Tear down this wall”.”

    Those words/that speech had no influence on the wall being torn down. Actually it was until 2 years later that it was being torn down when Reagan was no longer president. Also in that speech was ending the arms race and also eliminating some nukes due to the failed MX missile system.

    “The ship was the Flag ship for the whole Atlantic fleet. We were at most of the things you listed and were close enough to see the flash in the sky for the tent attack on Libya. That shut that guy up for decades”

    Are you talking about the USS New Jersey? The WWII battleship? Wasn’t she part of the Pacific Fleet? But she’s not a cruiser so I hope not. A guided missile cruiser is a modern ship. Probably most were commissioned in the 80’s AFTER these events took place. Yours must have been one of the very first ones. The New Jersey did most of the shelling, and if memory serves me correctly that ship was ALREADY there before the barracks bombing. It was dispatched after the other attacks that Americans were killed including those at the embassy.

    All that other stuff is just more political rant and not very much (if any) verifiable history. You’re too busy trying to condemn one group of politicians to praise another instead of just seeing things the way they are. Until you do that, it’ll be hard to ever take any of your posts seriously because you post with a very recognizable bias. You say you’re not and that you “used to be a democrat” but your bias against them goes why too far back and your sympathizing of republican administrations verifies that. Even your point to something “Soros funded” comes right out of the Republican handbook. Ok, now go ahead and say that you’ve “evolved”.

  40. Reuel said

    The neo-con philosophy under Barry is the same a Clinton’s. Drop bombs on their heads and run. That way didn’t work for the 8 years of Clinton because we still had a Iraq problem. As for Bush 1. I didn’t agree we needed to free Kuwait. The Saudi’s should of cleaned their own backyard. They had the weapons to do it believe me. Going back on all Presidents in my adult life, that I was old enough to vote for. There are 2. President Carter and President Bush that I trust. They both said what they meant and did what they said. (Right or Wrong) So that would include a very fair and balanced criticism and praise. Here is the voting record of Reuel. Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Mc Cain (Which I had to hold my nose while voting for him). Then Last year I voted other and wrote my own name in. So I have answered your question and was really disturbed by William assertions that the Bush Administration knew the Exact details of 9/11, plus somehow they tricked both houses of congress and the UN to go into Iraq. I have said many times and even e-mailed George before Iraq 2 that I thought it was a bad idea. But then who am I or anyone to question a President when he or she thinks it is required to protect this country. After all 9/11 had just happened and the world had changed. So by my voting record and anything else but the security of this great country, I could be considered a bleed heart conservative. Gay Marriage, so let it be done, its a State issue, Pro Choice, that is a burden and life choice I would never choose, but i something that is none of my business until my tax dollars are use to do it. Oil subsidies, not for it, Green Energy Subsidies, not for it. War, not for it until the last resort. Thing is what if they were moved to Syria? As reported by a New York Times Reporter as you can link to in block 28 above. Then what? Honestly I don’t know if they were still in Iraq or not and neither do any of us debating this. But to call someone a liar based on the “Investigative partisan reporters that occupy both sides of the political fence”. So being Pro choice, I choose to believe that neither 9/11 or Iraq was a lie or a deception until someone in the United States Government files and win a War Crimes trial. No not the Hag either.

  41. William Gates said

    “So I have answered your question and was really disturbed by William assertions that the Bush Administration knew the Exact details of 9/11″

    Please show where I have once even mentioned 9/11. I don’t think you can. I don’t know if anything you say is credible. I do know it’s illogical though. You’re too busy ranting to even read responses carefully and reply to what has been written. I’ve never asserted anything concerning 9/11. So either you’re mistaken or a liar. Or I am.

    Which one is it?

    You never answered anything concerning what I posted any of the facts of the terrorism/attacks that went on in that era. You’re back to partisan bashing again. Another biased rant. You’ve never heard me bash Bush or Obama. I frankly don’t see much difference. That’s why I can look at the posts objectively and not have a preconceived notion before I even read them. I don’t play the blame/bashing game. It either is or it isn’t. In regards to your posts being credible, they aren’t.

  42. Reuel said

    No you said they had credible information and did not act. read you own post above. Same thing. The Cruiser I was on was commissioned in 1971. it was a DLG converted to a CG in 1979. Admiral’s flag ship. Don’ care if you think I am credible or not. But am not a liar. Good day to you sir.

  43. William Gates said

    Show me. Prove that I said that. Copy the exact words that I wrote concerning 9/11. Obviously, or maybe not, you meant:

    “But the misstatements after the attack are a diversion, fodder for the right-wing, who have not a care about how we were lied into a war in Iraq, nor how Bush and his team , despite repeated warnings, were taken by surprise on 9/11″ That was written by Melfamy

    Or:

    “And while there may not have been a “specific threat,” there definitely were “repeated warnings.” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/opinion/the-bush-white-house-was-deaf-to-9-11-warnings.html?” That was posted by James.

    Now again I’ll ask you to post where I said anything about “they had credible information and did not act”. If you can’t then my original post stands true. You’re either mistaken, then you simply should admit to being that, or a liar which I don’t think you are I just think you made a mistake and now won’t admit it. Be honest or just don’t respond.

    I know the USS New Jersey sat off the coast. That was the one dispatched by Reagan.I know it did a lot of shelling. But like I said that was well after most of the other attacks and not in retaliation of. I have no idea what your ship did. It really doesn’t matter for this conversation I don’t think.

    “No you said they had credible information and did not act. read you own post above. Same thing.”

    My post from above:

    ““So I have answered your question and was really disturbed by William assertions that the Bush Administration knew the Exact details of 9/11″

    “Please show where I have once even mentioned 9/11. I don’t think you can. I don’t know if anything you say is credible. I do know it’s illogical though. You’re too busy ranting to even read responses carefully and reply to what has been written. I’ve never asserted anything concerning 9/11. So either you’re mistaken or a liar. Or I am.”

    Which one is it?

    “You never answered anything concerning what I posted any of the facts of the terrorism/attacks that went on in that era. You’re back to partisan bashing again. Another biased rant. You’ve never heard me bash Bush or Obama. I frankly don’t see much difference. That’s why I can look at the posts objectively and not have a preconceived notion before I even read them. I don’t play the blame/bashing game. It either is or it isn’t. In regards to your posts being credible, they aren’t.”

    Now where in there did I say someone had credible information and did not act? Dude, do you have a reading/comprehension issue?

  44. James McPherson said

    OK, gentlemen, you’ve been so good about carrying this blog that I decided it was finally time to do another post and give you something else to read. Thanks for all your input; I appreciate it, even when I don’t get around to responding quickly. http://jmcpherson.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/comparing-obama-to-other-presidents-and-to-mermaids/

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